Wow! I am so blessed by our times together. With our conversation from last evening settling in, I have some new things to ponder and share.
Let’s look at this through an even broader lens of scriptural truth.
What can we learn from Paul’s Thorn in the Flesh?
Who did the thorn come from? Satan. The thorn was a messenger from Satan. No where in the verse say that God sent the messenger.
Regardless of what Paul’s thorn was, was there something off in Paul’s way of thinking in respect to what he shares in this passage?
In Deuteronomy 30, God lists the blessings and curses that come from living either according to obedience/ godliness or from disobedience/rebellion and clearly lists health as a blessing that comes from obedience and disease and sickness as a curse coming out of rebellion.
Proverbs tells us that no curse can come into our lives without a cause.
Proverbs 26:2 “Like a fluttering sparrow or a darting swallow, an undeserved curse does not come to rest.”
Satan is the accuser of brethren (Revelation 12:10) and is as a roaring lion seeking out those he has legal right to devour. He is limited, he cannot bring on someone a curse if they are living in godliness. (see Job verse below). We can see that God places a hedge around those who live righteously that Satan cannot cross.
1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:” who is as a wandering lion looking for whom he can devour”
Job 1:6-12 “6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” 9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” 12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
The question is, what was the open door that gave Satan permission to send a messenger to harrass and buffet Paul with. From Job we can learn at least two things.
1st. Satan has permission to tempt the godly for certain windows of time. How often, when and for how long these can happen in a believers life, are questions that scripture does not clearly answer. But we see here that Satan had to get specific permission to do anything at all to Job BECAUSE of Job’s right standing with God. If a man is living in righteousness, then and only then does Satan need express permission to come at a man. That said, each one of us determines in at least some measure which windows and doors to our lives we leave open to the Enemy by how we choose to live. Scripture plainly warns us that sinning can not abiding in Christ can give Satan a foothold in our lives.
Here is a New Testament example to illustrate the point. We see this firmly echoed in James. God clearly commands us to submit to HIM and to resist the devil and to purge our double mindedness.
Ephesians 4:26-28 New International Version (NIV) 26 “In your anger do not sin”[a]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.”
James 4:6-8 New International Version (NIV) 6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”[a] 7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.”
So what foothold had Paul given to Satan to allow Him in? OR was he simply going though a testing time like Job did, like Peter, like Adam and Eve in the garden, like Jesus Himself int he wilderness? Scripture tells us that windows of testing are part of the righteous man’s experience but that they were a limited time opportunity for Satan only. Job went on to a life of double blessing. Luke 4 is an excellent example, Satan had to wait for his next opportunity, he did not have unlimited access to Jesus.
Luke 22:31-32 New International Version (NIV) 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
Luke 4:13 “13 When the devil had finished tempting Jesus, he left him until the next opportunity came.”
2nd point. That God was not the one tempting or testing Job. Satan asked permission and once he had obtained broad permission (note that God only gave him general instructions and prohibitions, he did not tell him or approve a specific plan of action to implement). From that point on, Satan authored all that came against Job but was limited by the parameters God imposed on him that he CANNOT cross. Now Job, mistakenly, creditted God with being the author of his calaminity. But scripture records the truth. Satan was the author but clearly Job got somethings very wrong here. God was always on his side. God was always for him.
Job 17:6 ““God has made a mockery of me among the people; they spit in my face.”
Job 18 ” But it is God who has wronged me, capturing me in his net.[a] 7 “I cry out, ‘Help!’ but no one answers me. I protest, but there is no justice. God has blocked my way so I cannot move. He has plunged my path into darkness. 9 He has stripped me of my honor and removed the crown from my head. 10 He has demolished me on every side, and I am finished. He has uprooted my hope like a fallen tree. 11 His fury burns against me; he counts me as an enemy. 12 His troops advance. They build up roads to attack me. They camp all around my tent.
Paul, at very least, had some error in his thinking at the time he wrote this passage. He believed that God needed a messenger of Satan to help him overcome the sin of pride.
Was that God’s best way of teaching a man? No, absolutely not. Scripture tells us that God’s best way to be strengthened against sin is by being empowered by the Holy Spirit to have the desire and ability to do what pleases God and by obedience and submission to His Word.
Philippians 2:13 New Living Translation (NLT)13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
Psalm 119:11 New Living Translation (NLT) 11 I have hidden your word in my heart,
that I might not sin against you.2 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV) 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Proverbs 14:3 New Living Translation (NLT)3 A fool’s proud talk becomes a rod that beats him, but the words of the wise keep them safe.
Proverbs 10:13King James Version (KJV)13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Paul had been commissioned, just like Adam, to take dominion over everything that crawls upon the earth and per Luke 10:19, he had authority over all the power of the enemy. Just as we are, Paul had been delivered from the power of darkness and yet in these verses we see him empowering and inviting the enemy’s thorn over the provision and promise of God to accomplish this work in Him via instruction and His Word at work in Paul.
Colossians 1:12-13King James Version (KJV) 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Proverbs 6:2 King James Version (KJV) 2 Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.
When considered in this light, God’s answer to Paul makes perfect sense. Paul was sincerely concerned/fearful that he was in or would fall into the sin of pride. Is it possible God was simply saying ” Paul, my grace (the power of the Holy Spirit within you, empowering you to live and walk out all aspects of kingdom living) is sufficient for you to overcome this. You don’t need that thorn to resist pride. All you need is me.” These are of course my thoughts alone, and not scripture, although I think the original language does support his view. There will be no Satan in heaven sending us messengers to prevent us from sinning. Did Paul really need that thorn in his flesh to overcome sin? What does scripture say? I believe what Paul needed, just like the rest of us, was more Jesus. Jesus THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.
Remember grace means = “of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues” from the Strong’s Concordance
1 Corinthians 8:1 ESV “Now concerning[a] food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up.. “
Iron sharpening iron is just such a wonderful thing. Thanks to you all, I have eyes to see things I missed before. For me, it now jumps out that Paul was stuck in some wrong thinking at very least when he wrote this passage. Paul concluded he needed a thorn, so he got a thorn. In an interesting twist, Paul himself shows he knew the answer even before he wrote this letter. He tells us that LOVE is really the antidote necessary to build and strengthen the church. This is echoed in the verse that perfect love casts out all fear and that fear comes with torment. We are made perfect in love not ideally via the demonic harrassment.
1 John 4:18 King James Version (KJV) 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Therefore we must lived mindfully not to follow Paul’s example in this one case. In believing he needed this thorn, he was in fact empowering it to remain as a life long pain in his flesh or possibly in his thinking.
Of course there are many theories to consider… another thought was that the thorn may have simply been some other undisclosed torment such as remorse and regret and condemnation for the part he played in the torture and murder of so many believers pre-conversion,
If Paul’s thorn was a demonic oppression, a physical ailment, or a mental stronghold that tormented him, did he have in Christ the answer to be delivered and set free? I believe the answer is yes, truly God’s grace was sufficient for him to overcome all these things.
The only other option that I can see is what I mentioned in the first post. That Paul suffered immensely and continually from being exposed to the elements, from lack, from all the things he lists in 2 Corinthians immediately before he talks about this thorn and immediately after he talks about His Thorn. In fact if we read it straight through from 2 Corinthians 11:16 to 2 Corinthians 12:11, we will see that Paul very much is speaking (I personally believe) consistently about the hardships and persecutions he faced due to his lifestyle as an apostle. In remembering that the verse markings were added later, you see when Paul begin to speak on this topic. He begins by introducing this new topic in 2 Corinthians 11:6 and then sums up his thought 2 Corinthians 12:10. If we define Paul’s thorn as persecution and hardships, then Paul really stays right on topic and is consistent throughout this part of his letter. If anything else, he is diverging momentarily to speak about his thorn (unrelated to everything he has shared before and after, but just kind of randomnly tucked). As we do in a letter, he then shifts to another topic. You will note that sickness is not listed among the dangers Paul faced, nor is it listed among the things he suffered from listed in his summary in verse 10 at the end there.
Let us continually rejoice, as Paul did
James 1:2-8 New International Version (NIV)Trials and Temptations “2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[a] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5
Romans 5:1-10 English Standard Version (ESV) “5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith[b] into this grace in which we stand, and we[c] rejoice[d] in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.”
From the Stong’s Concordance:
suffering = †θλῖψις thlîpsis, thlip’-sis; from G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
Of note, sickness and disease are not included in the meaning of this particular word.
So we can see it scripture plainly tells us through persecutions and the types of troubles Paul lists throughout the passage in question, God does not need sickness and disease to grow these fruit in us. We have got trouble plenty enough with all the others listed to do the job. God works all these wonderful things into us. Truly God’s grace in us empowers us to grow and flourish in the presence of harsh and unrelenting situations and pressures, instead of being crushed and destroyed. Praise the Lord. Truly He is Faithful.
My personal big question is no longer what was Paul’s thorn. At best we are speculating to come up with an answer to that particular question.
It think the bigger question is why did Paul accept this thorn. What about you, what do you see?
Something to keep in mind always. Revelation of the truth often precedes the ability to lie according to that revelation by a significant measure of time. Perhaps Paul really was just still in process at this time in his walk in this area. Scripture never claims that Paul or the disciples practiced what they preached perfectly. So we keep Jesus and and Jesus alone as our role model. Jesus never needed a thorn in his flesh to keep him from getting puffed up with pride and His revelation far exceeded Paul’s.
Healing and Discipleship 
It was shared that the Greek meaning and well established meaning of “thorn in the flesh” would have communicated a painful physical ailment” to the Greek community that Paul was preaching too. This is something you can look into for yourselves. As I mentioned in the original post, all of the other references in the Bible (from the Hebrew Old Testament Verses) equated thorns as being people or people groups. Paul and all of the apostles often referred in passing to the Old Testament verses. So we cannot know whether in this case Paul was referring to the OT verse that talked about people and persecutions from hostile nations being thorns or whether he was as in other cases, speaking to the Greeks according to their “turns of phrases”, we cannot be sure.
Another point I mentioned was that Jesus had far far more knowledge and revelation even than Paul. Jesus certainly did not require a “thorn in his flesh” to keep Him from getting puffed up, but Jesus did suffer persecution consistently as well. Paul either had fear of being proud or was proud, both of these would be a sin, so Paul was still struggling with some sin at the time he wrote this letter. But of course, this was also a letter written at one tme in his life. We don’t know if his thinking on this topic changed later. The Word is very clear, there is now only one intermediary between God and man, He the Christ. As wonderful as the apostles are and as encouraging as their lives are, they were still not perfect and still fell short of living perfectly. Jesus and Jesus alone is our role model. From 1 Peter 2 Berean Study Bible “20How is it to your credit if you are beaten for doing wrong and you endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps: 22“He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in His mouth.” In Acts 21, we see Paul is truly prepared for and ready to lose his life willingly to serve His Lord to the uttermost. And in Philippians 1, that Paul no longer clung to this life, but saw his death as gain for himself, but that exalting God with His body “as always” was a central desire of His.. Berean Study Bible “I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have complete boldness, so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know.…”
An interesting parralel: In the garden of Gethsamane, Jesus had a very similar experience. If the thorn was persecution or suffering of any kind, then truly this is a remarkable parralel indeed. My paraphrase “Jesus says, if it is possible, take this cup of suffering, but not my will yours. Luke 22:42 “41And He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, where He knelt down and prayed, 42“Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43Then an angel from heaven appeared to Him and strengthened Him.…” If from God, Jesus has fully embraced whatever tribulation must come to see the fullness of God’s will . We see Paul, a man, facing a similar fate and asking for a change of plans. Humanly, we tend to lean towards wanting the storm to stop, Jesus on the other hand was completely unintimidated by the storm and walked on the water in midst of the storm. As a human we must be on guard against going through something because of the pain and discomfort, even death it might cause us. Jesus wanted what would bring God the most glory and never once lost track of this as His only priority.